Tips for Job Interviews

If getting a new job is a part of your 2024 goals, this is the episode for you! Harry and Erin share how Meristem operates its internship program, including how Meristem uses experiential interviews for neurodiverse candidates. 

Listen for: 

• more in-depth discussion of the Meristem Method and how Meristem prepares young adults and employers for internships
• how to coach someone to remove distractions and use their phone less
• key tips for putting your best foot forward in an interview
• advice for employers on how to create experiential interviews that screen for skills 

#jobseeker #getajob #neurodiverse #autism #transformativeautismprogram

Share your questions and learn more about us at meristem.pro and tapautism.org

Transcript

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00:00:18:22 - 00:00:27:22

Harrison Lane

Hello everyone. Thanks for tuning in to the Voices of the Community Podcast

00:00:27:22 - 00:00:29:02

Harrison Lane

How are you doing today, Erin?

00:00:29:04 - 00:00:32:28

Erin Schirm

I'm pretty good. It's been. It's been quite a week.

00:00:32:28 - 00:00:42:14

Erin Schirm

I was just thinking it could be really cool to talk a little bit about the things you're seeing in the interview process around the internships that we're having.

00:00:42:16 - 00:01:07:27

Harrison Lane

So that's very interesting. So we have these internships. They are Meristem, based at Meristem, so the Meristem students get the first picking, but we help the entire state of California. So we have like three or four people that are going to be interns that are living in the community, but they're not Meristem students. And the first step is the application process.

00:01:07:29 - 00:01:34:00

Harrison Lane

But after they've applied, the second step is an interview. And you said the interview because the interviews are happening right now. So we have these internships, we have an internship in the café and we've actually so we also work in the community. We partner with a local preschool, Wonderland Preschool, and we're actually out in the community as well.

00:01:34:00 - 00:01:35:28

Harrison Lane

We're working on our land.

00:01:35:28 - 00:01:58:00

Harrison Lane

Somebody with neurodiversity you really want to make sure they understand the job description. So questions in the interview are actually taken right out of the job description. And so if their shift right is going to be Thursdays in the café, Thursdays 1 to 4 p.m., you actually ask the question in the interview, Can you work Thursdays 1 to 4 p.m.?

00:01:58:02 - 00:02:22:29

Harrison Lane

Very basic questions. Also ask them. They're going to do a garden internship. So a very specific question. Can you stand on your feet for one hour at a time? Can you deal with hot temperatures? Okay. This is interesting. You might think that somebody applying for the summer internship in the garden can withstand Sacramento temperatures in the summer. But you have to ask that question to know.

00:02:23:01 - 00:02:44:12

Harrison Lane

The second part of the interview is almost the most important part, in my opinion. It's the experiential interview. So it's a "show me" interview. We have people that are working in the cafe. Can you clean tables? That's the part of the job, actually. Marisa is our lead culinary instructor. She runs the internship. She actually has the intern cleaning the table as a part of the interview.

00:02:44:15 - 00:02:48:13

Harrison Lane

They'll set the table as a part of the interview.

00:02:48:15 - 00:03:10:20

Erin Schirm

Talk a little bit about that, because I think that's a big thing in terms of what you all talk about at TAP and how important it is for an employer to really understand the type of interview that you want to do for somebody with neurodiversity and why is it so important to have an experiential piece of the of the interview, particularly with neurodiversity?

00:03:10:20 - 00:03:30:14

Harrison Lane

We all have anxiety. A person with neurodiversity really has anxiety. And one thing is when you ask questions like, tell me about yourself. In fact, one of the people came to me today wanting to test. I think they're interviewing tomorrow and they said, you're going to ask me about myself. In the interview, we said, I said, No, we don't do that.

00:03:30:17 - 00:03:49:28

Harrison Lane

We do not ask you to talk about tell me about yourself and all those open ended gotcha questions that a traditional interview, they really overwhelm somebody with neurodiversity to the point where they can't perform and they will not get the and they won't get the job. We've seen it because they can't give the answer you need if they can do the work right.

00:03:49:28 - 00:04:05:15

Harrison Lane

A lot of people can't look you in the eye and really, you know, give you correct eye contact. But if they can show you that they can do the work more times than not, that's the better way to do it. And I always say, like a good job is not going to work out. We've had people in the café.

00:04:05:15 - 00:04:29:28

Harrison Lane

We're not going to hire them. If you do a “show me” interview, you're going to find that out a lot sooner. Oftentimes they'll do a traditional interview. The person with neurodiversity will get the job somehow. It's a miracle. I can't believe they got it right. Three months down the line. No jobs on the line. But if the company can offer the support, it's just very you know, it's just easier with the show me interview.

00:04:30:00 - 00:04:52:06

Harrison Lane

And I do want to bring it back to Marathon for a bit if I can. So we do all this doesn't matter. So a lot of it is experiential in nature and that can really help somebody getting a job helping with the interview. There's just these things which we do, you know, a lot is going on in my mind this week.

00:04:52:06 - 00:05:13:06

Harrison Lane

We have our founder, Maureen Turtletaub, down here, our founder, come to visit for the week, and it's actually a new thing that she's doing where she's working with each department at a training and trying as hard as she can to bring it back to the land, which is one of the keys of Meristem. But Erin, and how do you see what we do with Meristem?

00:05:13:09 - 00:05:27:26

Harrison Lane

How can that. Because my understanding is you don't start with the job of the interview. You actually start building those fundamentals in the garden, I would say also in the craft, but more so in the garden.

00:05:27:29 - 00:05:52:23

Erin Schirm

Yeah, well, I think to me what your point is we know if somebody is prepared for a job when given the opportunity to show what can you do. And to me I think the Meristem Method or the Meristem program the intent of the Meristem program is in general to provide a really wide range of movement experiences.

00:05:52:23 - 00:06:17:24

Erin Schirm

So even if I'm like carving wood, for example, there are movements that I'm making in woodworking that are all setting my nervous system in a variety of ways or integrating my nervous system in a variety of ways. So the Meristem program is designed around movement and movement being the fundamental way in which I develop a healthy nervous system.

00:06:17:26 - 00:06:49:10

Erin Schirm

When I have a healthy nervous system, I'm able to manage my sensory input much more effectively. I'm able to regulate my emotions and my thoughts much more effectively through doing. And then, you know, if I feel basically through a wide range of movement experiences, the intent is that somebody has the flexibility and capability to almost go do whatever they need to do for the job that they want to get.

00:06:49:12 - 00:07:25:21

Erin Schirm

Now, you don't necessarily know all the skills, but if you learn the principles of the movements, it's really easy to apply those principles to the movement situation or the experiential situation or interview that you're being asked to do. So ultimately, our hope is that somebody leaves and when asked to do a particular interview that has to do with, you know, maybe wiping a table or program and computer or whatever, they have the confidence and the ability to do that from the experiential side of things.

00:07:25:23 - 00:07:45:13

Erin Schirm

And, you know, like doing the garden provides you a bunch of different movement skills that you're starting out with. And I think when students have the opportunity to explore a variety of opportunities from that perspective, they're much more successful in going into the experiential based interview.

00:07:45:16 - 00:08:08:13

Harrison Lane

That's really interesting. And the land is key here. One thing that also comes to mind we see, so we have students that we're desperately trying to help and it's like we're all banging our head against the wall. But technology is one thing that they don't get the job often, and it's been said so I'm going to play. Yep, I'm going to say something here like this.

00:08:08:13 - 00:08:29:22

Harrison Lane

Okay, So technology can be great. We actually have a program right now working with students on what do they want to like, trying to figure out their future using an app. And we've heard me and Eric have heard tons about, there's an app out there that can help somebody get a job. And we've even talked to some woman that is running a company where it is true that an app will be great at narrowing it down.

00:08:29:28 - 00:08:50:02

Harrison Lane

But what I see with the students themselves is that they're so stuck in the phone, they actually they're not paying attention to the onboarding process, to the food handler certificate, like we're trying to work with them or or they're late or they're not showing up. They're just distant because they're stuck within their phone. How do we get them out of that?

00:08:50:08 - 00:08:56:29

Harrison Lane

You know, we try to put them on land, we try to do all of this, but what's the best, what would your suggestion be?

00:08:57:02 - 00:08:58:26

Erin Schirm

Like to get them out of the phone?

00:08:59:14 - 00:09:04:01

Harrison Lane

Well, have you seen anything that works? Because I actually think that it doesn’t work.

00:09:04:04 - 00:09:05:04

Erin Schirm

To get out of the phone?

00:09:05:04 - 00:09:10:00

Harrison Lane

Absolutely. And to get back to the job, You know, I mean.

00:09:10:02 - 00:10:00:10

Erin Schirm

It's a great question. I don't know if there's a right answer to that question. But what I do know about the phone is, one, it's addicting and two it's a really nice way to take your mind off of something and not have to face the real stuff. That's often hard. And I think that for our students, there's a well, just I'll just say in the world today, there's a kind of a habit that is decompress using technology rather deep rather than decompress, going out into nature or cooking a nice meal with friends or, you know, all of those things that we probably used to do before TV became a big thing, before the phone became

00:10:00:10 - 00:10:39:26

Erin Schirm

a big thing. And now the phone is just integrated in our culture. And I think that what it's trying to become and a level of addiction where you don't even realize, my God, this thing has consumed many, many hours of my life. And it's really hard to step out. But I will say the things that I have found that do allow you to do that is something that feels better than what the than the feedback that the phone gives you in sitting down there and to me as an instructor, if I do a really good job at creating an environment or drawing somebody into an environment of, you know, being out in the

00:10:39:26 - 00:11:04:16

Erin Schirm

garden and tasting really good food or making a homemade salsa that tastes good or playing a fun game, that kind of gets my body going and all of a sudden, wow, it feels really good to move rather than just sit on my couch or I'm getting probably crankier and like more slouched and all of those things. I think that that is a remedy to getting somebody off their phone.

00:11:04:16 - 00:11:14:21

Erin Schirm

But that takes a big effort. It often takes a team and an environment that has that invitation to draw you out.

00:11:14:23 - 00:11:34:12

Harrison Lane

What about autonomy? I'm an adult and I can do what I want. Difficult. I'll just do it with the job. Like it's difficult because a lot of people say, you know, we've gone back and forth at Meristem on the phone policy. It breaks alliances. But the thing is, in the job, of course. No, you're off the phone during a break.

00:11:34:12 - 00:11:55:03

Harrison Lane

You can be on your phone during break and lunch here. But the moment you're on the clock, that phone goes away. We don't see that at Meristem in so many cases. But yes, when we've got a lot, we're focusing, I would say are high-functioning. I don't know that we all like that way, but most of the people that I help are high, high functioning, meaning that they are and they can use their brain or think for themselves.

00:11:55:03 - 00:12:03:10

Harrison Lane

And so that can be an issue because then they're coming back and they're like, Well, I'm an adult. I can do what I want. Okay. But we're trying to see you have an end goal. I mean, it's just difficult.

00:12:11:00 - 00:12:40:09

Erin Schirm

It's a great question. I'd say we all want our freedom. Everybody wants their freedom and everybody would love to. I think everybody has outlets. I'd love to be able to do this thing this way. But then I think there's the realities of the world and you have to work like, I don't think there's a job that you don't have to work with somebody, even if you're remote, you still have to email back and forth.

00:12:40:12 - 00:13:16:29

Erin Schirm

You still have to have some sort of communication with another person. And it's really easy to take a stance where this is what I want and I need and I'm an adult and I should be able to do whatever I want. But when you get into beyond myself in an environment with multiple people or multiple needs or, you know, goals of an organization or whatever it is, all of a sudden I'm coming up against like, even if what I want doesn't quite align, what do I do?

00:13:17:02 - 00:13:35:22

Erin Schirm

And we've talked a little bit, I think maybe even in the episode with Eric about the two way street and how important it is to be able to assess, am I doing my part in a two way street? Because I can always take that stance and just be like, I'm an adult, I want to make this decision. 

00:13:35:22 - 00:13:58:23

Erin Schirm

Right, okay. So you've boxed yourself into a corner at some level where this is who you are and this is what you're going to do, and the likelihood of you finding a position or a job that can create that's like that little corner based on what the only, only the things that you want is probably not realistic or in the world for you.

00:13:58:25 - 00:14:34:14

Erin Schirm

And so to me, it comes down to like, I have to be able to understand what the employer needs for me and be able to at least reciprocate on that level. And I think at the end of the day, I've always found that when I when I reach towards somebody else or like I put in the effort to move, you know, to do my job even better, maybe then I could do my job or go above and beyond in terms of how I engage with another person that ultimately builds respect from the people around me.

00:14:34:16 - 00:15:09:28

Erin Schirm

Appreciation from the people around me, and I think lays the foundation of trust and respect that long term allows us to work together really effectively. If I start the conversation with, you know, I don't want to do that or I do it this way because, you know, that's how I do it, particularly in power dynamics, where if I'm an employer saying, Hey, I have this bigger goal and this bigger job that I got to get done, and you come, you're coming in to help us succeed in that.

00:15:10:00 - 00:15:24:23

Erin Schirm

And the person who's saying, Hey, I want to come help you succeed says, Hey, I want to come help you succeed, but I don't want to do that thing. I don't want to do that thing. Ultimately makes it really hard for me as an employer to say, Yeah, I really want to onboard this person.

00:15:24:25 - 00:15:49:08

Harrison Lane

It's just funny because I'm sure you've just seen it in general, especially in your role, but like, yeah, with the student, you know, it can be difficult. But one thing that I think we do, I think if you do a job very well is at Meristem we over communicate. Maybe you can take this back to your organization if you're an employer.

00:15:49:08 - 00:16:13:05

Harrison Lane

I would just end with this. But what we do is we over-communicate. We have meetings where we communicate about the students' needs. There are notes that are taken and shared with everybody. Things like medication changes, behavior within, and there's some staff in there.

00:16:13:06 - 00:16:32:02

Harrison Lane

I can promise you in these meetings like this doesn't apply to me, but it actually does. It's interesting, even when you're walking through the campus or let's say you're and I know you say this all the time, like always be aware. Like it's basically like you don't want to have you blinders on say you always want to have a peripheral vision even though there's probably a there's a lot of staff.

00:16:32:07 - 00:16:47:04

Harrison Lane

Well, you know, there could be, but you're always observing this and that. And then when you are engaging, the more that you engage and the more rapport that you have with somebody, the more they're going to listen to you in the morning are going to respect you, I would say, and be able to like, understand what you when you say something.

00:16:47:06 - 00:16:48:28

Harrison Lane

And maybe the reason behind it.

00:16:49:00 - 00:17:10:23

Erin Schirm

Totally. Yeah. I think like for me I'm always you know it's easy to again take the stance of that's not for me or that's not how I want to do it. And I think what can be really like when we're talking about working together, working is socially at some level. It's always nice if I can say, Hey, that doesn't work for me.

00:17:10:26 - 00:17:32:04

Erin Schirm

But I hear like I acknowledge where you're coming from and what your needs are. And what if we tried it this way? Like if I show up with, like, a creative solution, oftentimes that somebody didn't think about like that to me is actually really helpful from the employer standpoint where it's like, okay, yeah, that's a real accommodation.

00:17:32:06 - 00:17:51:07

Erin Schirm

Yeah, but and I love that you came with like because I might not even know that's how I need to think. But if you showed up with not only, Hey, I need this accommodation but a potential solution based on the understanding of what we're trying to do like that. So that to me is going above and beyond. It's like, man, I want to work with that person.

00:17:52:12 - 00:18:06:05

Harrison Lane

I hate ultimatums, but they were like, You can only know so much as if someone is on their phone and they're supposed to be doing something to get the job. You could always just say, Hey, listen, if you don't put your phone down and leave it alone, like you are not going to get the job because we have a deadline to do it.

00:18:06:08 - 00:18:23:18

Harrison Lane

But what, you never want to go there. But you can give an ultimatum. But I would say that the system that has been built here, which is this system of overcommunication and everything that Erin shared, really does work. I mean, it doesn't work in every case. And we are sad when it doesn't work.

00:18:23:20 - 00:18:31:16

Harrison Lane

And but it has seen, I would say, a higher percentage of working than not working. But you say.

00:18:31:19 - 00:18:55:05

Erin Schirm

Yeah, I think for the most part, one of the cool things that we're talking about at Meristem right now are non-negotiables. And I think this is pretty much what you're saying in terms of like what is you know, what are the non-negotiables of Meristem? Or what are the non-negotiables for a student coming to Meristem? For example, one of those being, hey, you're not being served by Meristem and you're not serving Meristem.

00:18:55:08 - 00:19:18:25

Erin Schirm

if you don't engage in the program. So that's a non-negotiable. If you have reasons for something that's going on that's keeping you from engaging, and we're happy to help you with that. But if you're ultimately not willing to engage in the program, it's a non-negotiable. And you probably and you should probably find a different program where that aligns better with the things that you're looking for.

00:19:18:28 - 00:19:22:08

Erin Schirm

And then the same principle is the job at some level.

00:19:22:11 - 00:19:41:15

Harrison Lane

And I'm sure you have seen it too, where it's like individualized. So, okay, you say this program, is it right for you because you're not engaging, not engaging a different value person, but you kind of have the same standard, like when you're working with this population. Because so many times I've seen people with this neurodiversity that were like, but I'm different than everyone else.

00:19:41:19 - 00:19:44:09

Harrison Lane

Yeah, you have to just set a baseline. I guess. Totally.

00:19:44:16 - 00:20:11:22

Erin Schirm

And engagement at the end of the day is measurable. It's like you showed up. You had asked the question, you advocated for yourself when something wasn't going well, you communicated your needs, etc. And so to me, I think when I'm able to like if I need to support somebody to do any one of those things, I can realize that you're struggling with advocating for yourself.

00:20:11:22 - 00:20:30:03

Erin Schirm

Let's figure it out so that you can engage more effectively. I think that's our job, really to help you out to do that. If you're struggling. But if you like, if we do that and you're still like, you know what, I just don't want to advocate. I just don't want to engage today. That's the non-negotiable. And it's just ultimately it's not going to work.

00:20:30:03 - 00:20:32:01

Erin Schirm

And you need to take a step of reflection.

00:20:32:01 - 00:20:50:26

Harrison Lane

By feeling, Yeah. I'm only going to show up to engage when I feel like it. Yeah. Does it work? Because it's not. I mean, it's one thing if you were sick, but I just don't feel or because, you know, so many people at the university are masking all the time. Well, sometimes I really get tired of it, handle it properly, and they're just like, I'm just exhausted today again with it.

00:20:50:27 - 00:20:55:00

Harrison Lane

Well, most employers don't accept that, so. Yeah.

00:20:55:03 - 00:21:14:29

Erin Schirm

Well, yeah. And to me, I think it's always like if you have a good reason and we live in I think we live in a tough time where, listen, America is very capitalist. I'm going to go a little bit off the rail here for a second, but there's a real push where you're constantly having to work and it's a 40 hour work week and it's a grind, grind, grind for a lot of people.

00:21:15:02 - 00:21:36:23

Erin Schirm

And that could be exhausting. Like this is me here and talking like I would, I think that we need to really be thinking about how we can maintain our health and a healthy life work balance and still be able to live and have a thriving life. And I don't think necessarily let's say the system in the U.S. is set up.

00:21:36:26 - 00:21:58:28

Erin Schirm

So in that regard. And so I think particularly for neurodiversity, where I don't think that they often have the endurance that your average person has in terms of being able to put their nose to the grindstone over and over and over again for an eight hour day, for a 40 hour a week for not, you know, 52 weeks out of the year, I think sometimes you got to make those accommodations.

00:21:59:05 - 00:22:18:27

Erin Schirm

But there's also developmentally this challenge that's like, well, I just don't feel like doing that. And that to me, like if you can identify it often is apathy. Like, I'm just I don't want to engage my will to do the thing that I know I need to do. And so I just kind of sit back and say, Yeah, you know what?

00:22:18:27 - 00:22:20:10

Erin Schirm

I don't feel like doing that today.

00:22:20:10 - 00:22:33:06

Harrison Lane

And if you're an employer, please don't take it like so in some cases they should be fired. Don't take it the wrong way, but it can. And almost in certain people it sounds defiant like I'm not doing it that which isn't the case. But they didn't handle that properly.

00:22:33:06 - 00:22:51:07

Erin Schirm

The interviewer And that to me is where like I think it's important to be supportive and ask those clarifying questions like, Hey, are you just exhausted today? And can we accommodate that? Or are you just being like, Yeah, you know what? I don't want to do that. And I'm being real empathetic around the work that needs to get done, and I just don't want to do it right.

00:22:51:10 - 00:23:15:07

Erin Schirm

And it's not always easy to figure out which one it is. Right Before we break out, what did you see this week for the internships where somebody did something really well? And what were two takeaways of things that you would want to share for the greater audience to learn from?

00:23:15:09 - 00:24:02:04

Harrison Lane

Well, let's start with learning first, ladies and gentlemen. Now, communication is one thing. People are missing an interview. If you're missing the interview, you must communicate to the person interviewing you or your manager. Should they not have the interviewers contact with them, but but not not communicating to anybody where you're this has been a big thing at this, you know, not communicating to anybody your location where you are in good because, well, for the job, there are many reasons why it's not good if this Meristem safety being one, but because of the job, you're not going to get the job if you know you don't show up to the interview.

00:24:02:04 - 00:24:28:16

Harrison Lane

And if you have, I allow a rescheduled interview. But I'll even go to the individual and say what was going on, too. But I need communication. So that's number one. And then just showing up, you know, I haven't seen it too many times, but just disengaging like Erin talked a lot about that. Disengaging. I mean, he just spent 20 minutes on it.

00:24:28:18 - 00:24:45:04

Harrison Lane

We have students that intern. We have interns that get accepted for the job and then they don't show up for shifts. They're disengaging. Maybe they don't really want to do it. I'm not sure if they were pushed into the job for money being one reason or they felt like they're going to owe it to somebody to do it.

00:24:45:08 - 00:25:08:07

Harrison Lane

It's better to be upfront, like they're working in the cafe and they've accepted the job and they never show up for it. They show up for a shift. They're leaving early, they're able, they're just not there. And that's like, Yeah, but we saw some really successful in them. We have a breakfast internship where we are cleaning the bed and breakfast.

00:25:08:10 - 00:25:29:19

Harrison Lane

Well, yeah, we have seen very successful. They're making the bed. We're following the step by step guide on how to do it. We saw some wonderful digging today by a student intern in the garden, digging a hole two feet deep, following and following Demitri, our land instructor. That he's going to be our lead intern in charge of the internship.

00:25:29:19 - 00:25:52:07

Harrison Lane

And he is. It was wonderful. He instructed this student to intern to dig the hole and then was following all the instructions. He followed the wedding instructions, the instruction for the weeding project. It was an overgrown shrub that he said. Demetrio said, you can you weed it on your own, figure out how to weed it. And I'm not going to tell you what tool to use your hand or whatever, just do it.

00:25:52:07 - 00:26:13:05

Harrison Lane

And he figured it out. He got it done. It was wonderful. He was ready to go so that we will see. Heat might be an interesting factor over the summer for this individual like that. But yeah, that was that was our two takeaways. And two things to learn from just show up and communication is key. So I will end on communication.

00:26:13:10 - 00:26:38:19

Erin Schirm

Yeah those are those are really good Harry I think you know I just Yeah. To sum it up, you can do really well in the interview, but it is also important to continue doing well. Like you got to keep showing up and oftentimes in an interview they don't need you to reinvent the wheel in that moment. They don't need you to show something that's way beyond yourself in that given moment.

00:26:38:24 - 00:26:57:04

Erin Schirm

They just need you to show up and do what's being asked of you to do. And if you can like it seems simple initially, but some of like it can be really like, man, I might think, well, I could do this differently. Or what if I did this that way or whatever. And in an interview situation, it just makes sense.

00:26:57:04 - 00:27:13:25

Erin Schirm

Hey, if somebody says, Do these five steps, I do these five steps and I don't need to add any coloring if I'm really good, maybe I could do those five steps perfectly and add a little bit of something to it. But the more important part is that I nail those five steps rather than try to change the process or the system, right?

00:27:13:25 - 00:27:34:21

Harrison Lane

Absolutely. As you move through the internship, we'll update you on the next step. To the next step is going to be the onboarding. There are some specific steps that we recommend in the TAP training for employer at onboarding, and we'll go over that maybe next week. Yeah, that's the main topic for next week. The onboarding and then building that support.

00:27:34:28 - 00:27:52:08

Harrison Lane

We can bring in a job coach after that because we're going to build support. By the way, if you're an employer go to TAPautism.org come and talk to me, we'll take the training together. That building a champion, somebody who could support the intern long term and then adjusting as we need to.

00:27:52:08 - 00:27:55:15

Harrison Lane

So as we move through the process, well, we'll make another episode.

00:27:55:17 - 00:27:57:11

Erin Schirm

Awesome. Thanks, Harry. Good conversation.

00:27:57:11 - 00:27:58:09

Harrison Lane

Today. Absolutely.

00:27:58:15 - 00:28:00:09

Erin Schirm

Podcast out!